On reinventing social networks.
In this episode, I speak with Mica Le John. Mica is a writer, technologist, and educator, and the CEO and co-founder of 2SWIM, a social messaging app with an emphasis on close connections and private communities. 2SWIM will be for everybody but is currently invite-only for POC-, LGBTQ+-, and/or womxn-centric communities, creators and brands (and their allies).
How have online communities changed in the light of the COVID-19 crisis?
How can we reimagine these virtual communities to moved them from being spaces for performance to spaces for engagement?
Can social networks generate value for users instead of extracting it?
Transcript
Intro/
Can we just redesign the systems that don’t work. The people I’m having, the chance to converse with in different parts of the world are imagining new systems, new collaborations. They’re imagining a new world. Welcome to design influence. I’m Isabelle Swiderski.
Mica/
I’m thinking about how do we, in some ways, think about to some as like the Patagonia social, so where it’s focused on equity for both stakeholders, not only shareholders and really thinking about how do we create new systems for social platforms, both in how they interact with the users, but also how they interact internally and with the larger community that they’re part of.
Isabelle/
I had the opportunity this week to chat with Mica Le John, a writer and technologist, and the CEO and co founder of to swim a social messaging app with an emphasis on close connections and private communities through this pandemic, we’ve been trying to find ways to connect with each other through our screens. I wondered if Mika had some insights she could share around how communities that have existed online prior to the pandemic are adapting to respond to this different need for emotional proximity. When there is no in-person alternative, we sat down over tea in our respective homes in LA, in Ottawa and explored how she’s reinventing social networks and how we might all get better at being physically distant. But socially close.
Mica/
We ended up getting into an, a phenomenal accelerator program called Headwind that’s run by second muse, which is an organization that I believe its tagline is “powers 21st century economies”. And so we’re taking part in this program that is for organizations building digital wellbeing products for young people, and specifically looking at underserved young people. So young people of color, young people who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, young women, which of course is very in line with who we are invite only for. So it’s been really great learning in that program. It runs now through August.
Isabelle/
Can we take a step back and how did it all get started? How did you move into this space and decide that this was your mission for now?
Mica/
Yeah, so a confluence of multiple things. My background is in digital marketing experiential and branded community building. I’m from Toronto originally, so I was doing that work there. And then I spent the last two and a half years while in New York. So 2017, 2016, 17 through 2019, I wasworking at arts organization called no longer empty. And there I directed the education department. So working with young people mostly again, underserved communities for young people, exploring how the arts can be tools for social justice, how they could use different mediums to bring about change and use social platforms to really build their own networks and build them as platforms really for their own voices. And in doing that work parallel to that, my co founder and I had been having conversations about social for probably three years that point. So like 2017 ish. Aand because my background is in digital marketing, I had seen for a very long time how social could be used and also how it sort of needs to be used.
And Michael and I, my co founder, and I’ve had a, probably like a kind of epiphany is the word, but in 2017 he ended up deciding, you know what? I’m leaving fashion. Like let’s work in this space, let’s build. And so he taught himself to code that year and we ended up starting building our first app, which was a video to video app in 2018. And when I say we built it, I mean, he built it single handedly. I was just there cheering him on. And, the app, we launched beta on that in 2018, 2019. And then ended up building, building that testing, figuring out who our core user was, what it was they really, really wanted from social. And then sort of took that out those ideas and started building 2swim last summer. So summer of 2019.
Isabelle/
And what do you think is the core approach of 2swim that’s different?
Mica/
Yeah, I think for us, I think there’s a couple of pieces. So 2swim is invite only, social messaging focused on close connections and private communities. And we have sort of three main groups that we work with. We have sort of traditional groups or communities who meet online or offline. We need a better digital space to meet. We have a spaces for creators. So folks who have an audience or Instagram following that they really want to convert into a real community where they can talk to each other. And it’s not just about the creator, but about the people who are part of that extended community. And then we also work with brands and again, thinking about brands who are really centered around those underserved groups and are actually thinking about how does the value of the platform and of what they, as their platform benefit, the people who actually give them money to sustain as a business.
And so for us, we have sort of, the core piece is really thinking about changing how we use social to not be about consumption, but actually about engagement.
And so for us, we have sort of, the core piece is really thinking about changing how we use social to not be about consumption, but actually about engagement. And I think that that is like that’s consistent across all of those three sort of main groups we work with for each of them. It’s a little bit different. I think that for groups, we offer a way for community leaders to both still have, you know, agency to run the group, but also in many ways sort of democratizing access where we ability to post the ability to be excited about being part of the community. Um, same for creators. And I think for brands it’s like really thinking about for them, how do we, as I’m sure, you know, like Instagram ads are very expensive, it’s really difficult to be a smaller brand and actually get above the noise of what’s happening on most social networks. And so for the brands that we’re working with for them, it’s a way to actually engage more meaningfully with their customers. So it turns less into like a transactional relationship and more into a sort of the next generation of what brands will need to be, which is actually acting as people who care about the people who buy into the brand
Isabelle/
In the current crisis that we’re all going through, I’ve heard a lot of folks just have zoom, fatigue, and also just basically saying, I don’t want another platform that I need to post to because I just can’t handle it anymore. Have you noticed any difference in how people are engaging or have you heard anything from the groups that have made them change how they approach this space?
Mica/
Yeah, I mean, I don’t think, I don’t think anything in our anyone’s life has been untouched by what’s been going on right now. I think that for some of our partners, it’s very mixed. I think for some folks, especially those who are parents who are running communities, but also have full time jobs. And in addition to being now a full time, stay at home parent, um, for those, those it’s a lot, it’s been a, it’s been a push and really difficult because they aren’t getting paid to do this. It’s not their everyday work. And while they really care about the communities, they also have to like take care of themselves and take care of their families. Um, but then on the other hand, we have partners who are, you know, I think also this tends to lean more towards college students and folks who are sort of off for the summer, but for those, for them, it’s like, this is something fun to experiment with.
They love building identity online. And we really to think about too. So I’m not about being, you know, you have to come to 2swim to whatever community you’re part of and then post in that community. It’s not just about the posting, but actually like having conversations. And I think that also takes the pressure off where it’s not about, Oh, you need to be like on Twitter reach and be like pithy and like funny — or at least inflammatory. It’s not about doing that to like, get attention. It’s about, no, I want, you want to have conversations. And so thinking about how we have that dynamic, I think is, is shifting for some folks because they’re also getting used to this habit of like, Oh, I’m coming here to talk to people, not to talk at people.
Isabelle/
That’s definitely an important distinction. And so as your role as convener, because of course you’re supporting conveners and creators, what do you think is, well, both the challenge and the opportunity of this time where not only are you leading to redefine this digital space, but there’s also so many shifts going on. So starting with the responsibility, what do you think the responsibility is as a convener in this moment?
Mica/
I think that, I think I’m of two minds. Well, I think so perse, so personally I’ll speak to that more recently because it’s my life that I’m experiencing. I think for myself, the response, I feel a mental responsibility anyway, as someone who has a social platform that is working to support partners. So for me, my responsibility is to always make sure that we’re there for them. Um, our team spend a ton of time building out resources, and we’re actually going to the midst of creating our own community on Tuesday and for the community leaders to meet each other and have conversations because I think that will support from one’s more, you know, the formal community, one leads is important. It’s also really helpful to have peers and people who understand that sort of day to day experience of running a community. Um, so we’re really trying to make sure we create resources and space for that.
In terms of conveners, who aren’t running the app, running their own spaces and their own communities, um, or streams as we call them on the app. Um, I’ve had a couple conversations with partners who are starting to really in a way that I really like rethink what it means to run a community. So whether that means saying, you know, no, like I can’t do this for entirely free anymore. It’s not sustainable for my own personal mental health or lifestyle. Does it mean that they’re trying to charge, you know, $500 a month for access, but they’re just there, they’re really recognizing like that is, this is, this is work that’s important and it should be paid for. Um, so we have a hand, some partners and folks that I know who were sort of starting to really think around those ideas. I think also it’s something that we’re really interested in sort of in the longterm is thinking about going back to that stakeholders.
So it’s not just about the community leader sort of creating space. It’s also about the people who are part of the community actually pitching in. And I think it’s sometimes difficult. Like some folks just aren’t as naturally, naturally like extroverted digitally. And so if they’re just, those are not gonna be the ones who like, you know, start conversations, they’re going to always be the ones to join, which is fine. But for us, it’s really thinking about how do we also support those folks who are more informal community leaders within a community. So sort of how do we build up optionality for, you know, maybe not a moderator, but someone of that type who sort of like a second in command and can assist the lead person. Um, and so for us, again, going back to it, it’s just like building those support systems and creating ways for other people to support them as well.
Isabelle/
What is the thing you’re most proud of in the last few weeks?
Mica/
What am I most proud of? Okay. I think that the way that our team, so from Headstream, since we were accepted into the program, we’ve brought our team. Naya who’s been interning with us for the last, almost a year, actually eight months. It’s actually joined the team properly as a permanent team member. And then we’ve also brought on someone as head of brand partnerships. And so seeing the growth of our team so quickly, but also the way that the team is mobilizing to create those support systems, whether that’s reaching out to brands to be able to support communities on, to swim or just building spaces for the two swim leaders that I think has been the most, the thing I’ve been the most proud of is seeing how quickly they’ve mobilized and also the action that’s taken. It’s just so, so admirable and I’m really excited for that.
Isabelle/
Fantastic. So what does success look like for you then? I mean, I know there’s a ton of uncertainty right now, obviously, but what is your, your vision for as much as you can imagine in this moment?
Mica/
For us right now, we don’t, I mean, as of right now, and this has been something that we’ve been like playing back and forth with, like this conversation of even just like success often in the startup world is measured in VC dollars. And for us, that is not something that we think often aligns with the needs of that social network. When the VC, the values of a social network, don’t often alive align with the dollar value placed on a platform by VCs. And so for us, success really looks like, do we create a social app that allows people to connect to people they care about whether they met in person or not, doesn’t matter, just do they, do they want to have those conversations?
I think as well, success for us really lies in creating value for the users, not taking value from them. And so for us, if this is a very like longterm long game, um, we want to seem to be something that we like continues to be no matter who is, who is there. Um, and it continues to be utility for folks and continues to be as place where they can actually just like go to engage and have conversations. They don’t have to go to perform. Um, and I think what we can change that we can really change how we all interact in person as well, let alone how we interact on a sort of the more mainstream performative platforms.
Isabelle/
So you brought up VCs, I’m curious how your experience has been as, as a woman founder, as a woman of color and also supporting communities that are generally or often underserved. The hope also that, you know, there’s a real opportunity to invite people, to tell the new stories that we’re going to tell in this, in this world that’s emerging. How, how has your experience been, has it been an advantage or a challenge or a mixture to be who you are?
Mica/
Yeah. Um, that’s a great question. And I think, I think it’s a mix. I have a mixed answer. Um, well, I should say on the firsthand is like the I’ve never had anything blatantly horrible happen against me, gender race, like any of that, um, which is great. Um, I also have built like amazing connections with folks in the venture capital and just the startup world more broadly. So I also should say like, nothing bad has ever happened because I’ve so far I’ve only met really wonderful people. Um, there have been some like funny conversations about, you know, people invest, some investors thinking that social, like, which again, it goes back to the, what the investors need. Like they need massive returns for their, their, their LPs and their investors. And so for them, it’s like they need X Facebook, but the problem is that some of the bigger platforms are, are causing the biggest problems that we’re having.
So the biggest, I think the biggest difficulty in the last few months, or the last few months, but like the last, you know, year or so of building in this, 2swim is that for a lot of folks, if they, if there is a pattern they can match, they will match it. And then once that pattern is matched, it’s sort of hard to work backwards to say, right. But like that is the bigger issue we need to not recreate that. I mean, I’ve heard, I’ve heard some horror stories. I have friends who, you know, have raised and experienced some things, but I’ve been really lucky that that has not happened to me. And I’ve met just wonderful, wonderful people.
Isabelle/
Do you think there’s an opportunity to gradually change that conversation? I mean, clearly, you know, you’re values-based and you’ve built a business based on the vision of how community can be built and who should be invited to the table. How do you think we can affect change? Is it the way you’re doing it, or I know you’ve been hosting conversations as well. What has been the strategy to advance a little bit, your values as well as, as what you’ve been creating as, as a creator, but also really projecting what your values are and why you’re creating.
Mica/
Totally. Um, so I answer the question in the reverse. So I’ll answer like what we’ve been doing, and then I’ll speak to I’ll speculate on how I think what I think the future looks like. Um, so personally, as you said, we’ve been hosting we’re hosting conversations before, um, before all of the, the COVID-19 half started happening. Um, and for us it’s less about, I don’t know, maybe this it’s less about projecting values as it is just living them. Um, in addition to the work that I do with, to swim, I also know I’ve consulted for a couple of, I’ve been, cause I’m not doing it as much now, but I’ve over the winter. I was consulting for a couple of companies, mostly like women owned brands. I also teach a course on intersectional feminism to girls in China over the internet every quarter.
And it’s amazing. I love doing it. But for me it’s less for me and for the team. It’s really less about saying, you know, our website. I mean, our website does need to be, we’re going to be redoing it soon, but it’s not about saying like you, our website needs to be like this manifesto of what we’re doing. I think it’s really in, you know, when we bring on a partner to, to, to swim, we do like incredibly laborious and like loving work to make sure that they feel happy and secure on the platform. Even just as like the community leader themselves, let alone the individuals, I personally email like it’s every new user comes on to the app, asking them to give feedback, ask them to just check in with me, especially right now with what’s happening with COVID. I just want to make sure that we’re able to support however we can, um, bigger picture in the world.
I do think that there is space and there are definitely people who are interested in social and investors, I should say, too, who are interested in the social space and understand that, or have expressed any way to me in a conversation that they’re not necessarily looking for, you know, them billion multibillion dollar unicorn. Yeah. Like they are okay with less, uh, less than one return, which is fine. I think that’s great. Um, I think for us, it’s, I think the, sort of the big picture of social is that it’s about multiple, I think there’s any splintering in many ways of different communities. Um, so there’s a couple of different apps, other apps that have come up in the last like year or so that are social ish or more like dating that has some social elements, um, that are really important for the communities that they serve.
I think that that’s, we’re going to start seeing more of these sort of like niche community apps. I also think we’re going to see a backlash to that because, you know, as with people with intersectional identities, we don’t want to go to one app for one of our identities, not everyone does anyway. Um, and so I think that there’s, there’s going to be a splintering and there’s gonna be a back. I’m gonna be at that bit of a backlash. And I think that at the end of the day, as long as there is like VC tech, Twitter, there’s going to be also just like certain people who quote unquote win the game. Um, and I think the game being like sort of those larger, larger returns getting at like getting acquired, I don’t think we’re going to see for a while, um, sort of a big enough social app that will well IPO nor do I think a social app necessarily should IPO. Um, again, going back to stakeholders versus shareholders. So that’s my light speculation on the future.
Isabelle/
If you were to give yourself your younger self with the same five or 10 years ago, advice, what would you, what would be the advice you would give her?
Mica/
Hmm, that’s so funny you asked that because the person like the life I lived five years ago versus 10 years ago, as I’m sure it is for many people is very different, but for me, it’s like so vastly different. Um, I think so the person, I was five years ago, it’s closer to the person I am now. So I’ll say person. I was 10 years ago. I think to the person I was 10 years ago was keep experimenting. I think that, and I have this conversation a lot with the young people that I work with is that when the way that high school like schools, the school system is built is that we’re told we have to find a path and then get on that path at 18 and we’re 1718, and then follow it until we figure it out.
And I think that gen Z is starting to really, you know, not do that, which is great. Um, but I think there’s still like a very large portion of young people, myself included at that time, um, who sort of like thought they were supposed to go down one path and we’re just expecting it to stay that way. And I think that looking alive, like just like being aware that I can make money and experiment and do exciting things and not expecting some always stay static, um, is the most, one of the most important things to remember.
Mica Le John is a writer, technologist and educator and the CEO and cofounder of to swim a social messaging app with an emphasis on close connections and private communities.
