On reclaiming stolen spaces.
In this episode, I speak with Sean Condon, Manager Director at 312Main, a Vancity Community Foundation project in Vancouver’s Downtown East Side, about his hopes for this project which reclaims a building heavy with our colonial history. What happens when we open up avenues and physical spaces for dialogue, when we invite community and indigenous organisations to co-habitate and inspire each other? How do models of social enterprise come into play in addressing some of societies most blatant inequalities?
Transcript
Intro/
Can we just redesign the systems that don’t work. The people I’m having, the chance to converse with in different parts of the world are imagining new systems, new collaborations. They’re imagining a new world. Welcome to design influence. I’m Isabelle Swiderski.
Sean/
It is a project that has been years in the making. I would say that it’s also a very ambitious, important project of, of the scale of which I don’t think has been done before. Certainly, uh, anywhere in North America, uh, where we’re building, um, uh, a building, a place, a home for entrepreneurs, for advocates, for not-for-profits, um, for indigenous organizations that has meant to address some broader systemic challenges around poverty, colonialism, um, racism, but also connect directly with this community, um, of, of which many people are dealing with an ongoing health crisis with, uh, drug use and, uh, opiate overdose deaths as well. So it is a, it’s a, it’s an ambitious project. It’s a challenging one, but it’s also a very necessary one that a lot of people are, are very excited about and hopeful for the change that we can create here.
Isabelle/
Sean Condon is managing director at three 12 main, uh, project event, city community foundation three 12 main is a center for social and economic innovation located in the downtown East side in the former Vancouver police department headquarters. Sean previously served as social enterprise development advisor for van city community foundation and founded his own social enterprise megaphone, which is a monthly magazine sold on the streets of Vancouver and Victoria by homeless and low income vendors.
Sean/
So this building was built in the early fifties and was the headquarters for the Vancouver police department. And, um, uh, this neighborhood had always been, I think, a bit of a mixed income neighborhood. There was a lot of lower income folks, a lot of loggers and, and fishers who would use the, uh, the hotels, the single room occupancy hotels as a sort of waystation in between seasons. But, um, as we saw kind of in, in all of North America, the hollowing out of cities as folks, uh, moved to the suburbs and, uh, capital, uh, flooded with it, uh, this just really decimated this community. And, um, we also saw some, probably some social engineering of, of, um, the city pushing poor people into this community. And, um, so the, if you’ve ever seen or heard stories of Vancouver down, uh, down to any side, it’s a very dense neighborhood.
A lot of, uh, drug use a lot of poverty, a a high indigenous community as well. That is, um, dealing with the ramifications and ongoing impacts of colonialism. Um, and so the police station, uh, became very, um, a source of pain for a lot of people in the community. A lot of people looked at it as a, as a place of oppression where they might be arrested and brought into the jail sales were, um, in the industry, farewells are in the jail cells. They might have been, um, physically abused as well. Um, and are just, just a reminder of the, the lack of power that they had. So transforming this building is it, wasn’t just a building, you know, it was a symbol for a lot of the, um, the systemic problems and injustices that were in this community in a nurse societies. So we’ve been having to think about that, the, the legacy of this building on, but also, um, we’re hoping to have, build a new narrative about the transformation of this building into one that empowers the community.
I think for me, one really symbolic, uh, um, room in the, in the building that symbolizes that change, I guess, is, uh, on the fourth floor, uh, is the, uh, was the police chief had a boardroom, and that’s where they did a lot of their press conferences there. And over the years, it was all a lot of press conferences that, uh, um, were about folks impacted our indigenous communities and, and issues that related to indigenous communities. And, um, for instance, uh, around me murdered and missing women, um, in Vancouver, in the downtown East side. And at first the police denied that there was a, you know, a serial killer for instance, who was preying on, on, uh, women, vulnerable women, often indigenous women. So that boardroom, um, what you’d see in the, on your six o’clock news, I became a very much a symbol of pain too, for indigenous communities.
That boardroom is now, um, the, uh, the space for the union of BC Indian chiefs. Um, and that that’s their boardroom now. And they have replaced some of the, uh, the wood walls with, uh, Cedar wood and their own, um, artwork as well. And this is where they bring their community in, and they have their meetings when they’re talking about organizing around injustices around murdered and missing women, uh, around, um, environmental, um, uh, justice as well, that happens there. So I think, you know, there’s more work that needs to be done. We need to listen to the community, we need to work with indigenous communities, but I, but I think that to me is that’s a big part of it is, is this transfer transferring a power back to communities?
Isabelle/
How do you invite other folks to come into the space? So obviously you speak of this example, are there other examples, um, and maybe what are the greatest challenges that you’ve encountered in trying to invite diverse voices, diverse groups in.
Sean/
It has been challenging. Absolutely. And I think in some ways it’s, it’s worked really well in other ways. We still have a lot to learn. Um, one aspect is I, as we develop the space, we had a certain visions for how this was going to operate and because of zoning issues, uh, just because of capacity, we haven’t been able to achieve all those. And in some of it is just, you know, um, testing and learning as we go. But some of it has just been restrictive based on, based on the, the, the zoning of the building and, um, what we’re actually allowed to do. So, um, in terms of inviting the community, um, you know, in one way, absolutely the, the organizations that are in this space are, are mostly working very intentionally in this community. Um, and, uh, that can be social enterprises that are employing, uh, people who are experiencing homelessness or poverty addiction, mental health, mental, uh, physical disabilities, um, it’s advocacy organizations that are, uh, working to, um, uh, change, uh, legislation and, um, work with governments to, um, ensure we can end poverty, um, you know, to having the union of BC Indian chiefs that are, uh, such a powerful voice in indigenous communities in this province.
Um, so those that’s kind of in that way, bringing them all together and then, and, and in many ways in the same spirit of, of coworking and co-location understanding how those groups can work together by the sharing the space. And sometimes that happens quite informally and you’re just around, um, her now literally around the kitchen table in other ways, uh, how can we at three 12 main, um, help support those groups more, uh, more formally by having, uh, our own programming here at the space that does capacity building for those organizations and brings them together in a purposeful way and intentional way to look at, uh, just, you know, strengthening your organization and strengthening your networks as well. Um, in terms of the broader community, um, we’re always, we’re trying to bring that community into the space. We have a beautiful ground floor with, um, uh, indigenous inspired longhouse on the ceiling.
We’ve had conferences here, healing, ceremonies, um, groups that are able to come in and have their events here, um, and in continuing to invite them. And there’s, there’s work that we still have to do about how, how we’re, how we’re inviting the community in here and how accessible we can be. But it’s, it’s, it’s ongoing work that we’re, uh, that we’re, that we’re focused on trying to find solutions to. So when you say we, how, what are some of the mechanisms that are using, that are using and how in the management of the organization, are you bringing in diverse folks or are you, yeah, so in that sense again, you know, I say we it’s, it’s, uh, this is again a project, the advanced city community foundation, but, but really, you know, we w we’re a part of a broader community. So, um, in one sense, it’s working with the, the members and the tenants who are already in the building, you know, and, and building the network with them, um, and listening to them and their needs and their ideas and letting them lead.
Um, so we don’t, we don’t, we don’t need to do the programming organizing if they have the ideas and just, how can we support that in other ways, building relationships with the broader community, inviting them in, and, uh, the stakeholders, the organizations, the ones that we have built up relationships with over the years, either through the individual staff members, or as the, as the organization, the community foundation as well, and listening to them and trying to build those coalitions, um, and, and really being intentional, uh, about that, that kind of, um, that organizing, right. And it’s, and I, you know, from my own experience, working in this community, running a social enterprise myself with, with folks who are homeless and low, low income, um, it’s, it’s hard work. It’s long. It takes a long time, and you have to be purposeful. You have to keep showing up.
You have to also be honest about what you can and can’t do, and what, where the boundaries are. Um, but you just have to keep working on it. And so I’d say, you know, we we’ve been open in this space for just over a year. I’d say it’s feels like very early stages. We have a lot of work to do in terms of building those connections and those coalitions building that community. Um, and I think we have a lot of learning to just understand where this project gonna go, which is, you know, the, the part that keeps, keeps keeps us spinning in a good way. Right. And, and it keeps me excited because, um, I think I, you know, we can all see the opportunity and the potential of having a project like this be such a powerful asset for this community. And, and yet, in some ways I’m not, you know, we don’t entirely know where this is going to go, because I don’t think we can totally read that that has to be done with the community.
So, um, so what has been, what is the story that, to you at this stage embodies in a way, the intention that you had when you came into this project? Is there something that comes to mind? Yeah, I mean, maybe there’s been a few, but one that comes to mind right away is, uh, we had a four day conference here called feminist deliver. And that was, um, a conference in, uh, a coalition of, of women’s feminist organizations that, um, came out of a response to a, uh, uh, another conference that was downtown called women deliver. And, um, a number of women organizers said, you know, this, this conference that’s happening. Uh, doesn’t feel like it reflects the voices of being in the grassroots, the women in this community. We, we need to organize ourselves, uh, and we need to take part as a protest, but also as part of an opportunity here.
And, um, they reached out to us and they said we really it to be in this space. And we had not run a conference of that size yet. We’re not, you know, but we recognize that this time, this was such an important moment, um, that we needed to get prepared. So, um, especially because the report, um, the coincided with the release of the report around the murdered and missing women in Canada, most indigenous women. So for four days, um, this conference, uh, was on the ground floor. Uh, you know, I had hundreds of people come, uh, mostly women, indigenous women, women of color, uh, women that have been marginalized, um, holding, holding court and, and talking about the issues that are impacting their communities and, and organizing about solutions and, um, building those coalitions themselves and recognizing, you know, what are, what, what power they have, um, and what needs to be done going forward.
And I, I thought that was a really great opportunity cause this was what the space was built for for those moments, uh, for this community to come in and take that ownership. And I’m, I’m glad we were able to host that. And I want that, that, that moment to be replicated, uh, for us where the community does feel that sense of ownership in this space, that this is an asset for them to organize, to have a safe place, to, to, to come and feel a part of and do so in a way that’s really going to affect change.
Isabelle/
And the flip side of that is I’m assuming that you’ve run into a number of challenges. You mentioned zoning before. Is there something else as well, where if you were to do it over again, um, you would avoid that situation or, or something that, where you learned something from the hindrance that occurred.
Sean/
Yeah. I, you know, it’s, it’s been a, I, you know, I’m, I’m still relatively new at five months, so, you know, um, I think that, um, one piece that has been interesting is design, uh, of space. And, um, and it, there are a lot of small things that I look back at and say, if, if done again, you know, if done with more understanding of what the community’s needs are for the space, I think we would have redesigned the space in a different way. Not that it is still can’t work, but it’s been interesting to me, um, to look back and say, um, is, you know, this is in one sense, it looks like this could be totally functional and useful. And then when we were bringing community and they’re saying, actually this doesn’t work for us, you know, it would have been so much better. This, this room was over here or the access was over there. And, um, I think that’s just an important consideration now. I think we’re, we’re lucky that, uh, that we work with the community that is so flexible resource, you know, resourceful and they make it make, do with very little. And so we’ve worked around those challenges, but I also do think it’s interesting to see how, um, you know, human centered design community design, uh, how much this is something you shouldn’t shortcut at all. Yeah.
Isabelle/
You’re preaching to the choir! At the outset. I’m assuming you needed a number of partners, not just on the financial side, but even the city. What kind of, can you walk me through a little bit, the process of not just coming up with the idea, although I’d love to hear about that as well, but also having it come to fruition, how long it took and again, where you feel maybe the key collaborations where that really move the work forward.
Sean/
Yeah. So some of this predates my, a lot of this prayer predates my time. I, I, um, my relationship with this project and building, and actually been on the other side as a tenant. Um, so maybe I’ll try to speak to both, but, um, yeah, but I think for, for first as a, as a, as a tenant, you know, uh, I ran a, um, an organization called megaphone magazine, which is a, a magazine sold in the streets of Vancouver by homeless and low income people. There’s a model on a project that is, um, that is similar and popular around the world. And, um, we were in a, in a place in time where we needed a new office space and we looked around, um, what was available. And we began to quickly realize we were in a lot of trouble. Uh, we couldn’t afford the space.
The downtown East side, um, is being gentrified and that has, uh, quite rapidly as well. And that has raised the market rates, the real estate rates quite significantly for. So for smaller organizations are really struggling, even larger organizations are struggling to, to maintain their, their presence in this community, which is still very important. Um, and the thought began, well, what happens if we leave this neighborhood? Like what impact would that happen? We knew it would be significant for a lot of the folks that depend on the income generated from, from megaphone and being accessible to them. Uh, cause it wasn’t, it’s not just a couple blocks over, it would be, um, quite a far a move that would have to happen to find affordable space. So when this project did come forward, um, and we started in negotiations with, um, uh, with, with the project by moving in, it was, it was a blessing.
We were very grateful because I don’t know what would have happened if we had to leave. Um, and so in that sense, so when I, when we signed the lease, before I left the position, um, uh, you know, they, the impact that that just had on this organization. And I think so many that are in this space is, is, is, is really, really powerful, right? Because it, it, we are at a moment to where it’s, the neighborhood does feel at a crossroads and it’s already a very vulnerable neighborhood and the impact of losing those important resources, spreading them out and making them no longer as easily accessible, uh, could be really devastating for a lot of folks. Um, so that, that’s kinda my personal background into this space and connection to it now, in terms of, um, how this is manifested in the history of it.
Yeah. It’s, it’s been a political one for sure. You know, there had been talk about demolishing the building, potentially turning this into social housing, cause that’s a need in this community as well. Um, uh, I believe that the vision really came from, um, the Jim green foundation, which, uh, Jim green had been a long time community activists, a former city counselor, and his vision was that he saw a need for a social innovation center in this community. Um, as, as a gap in terms of like the assets, you know, there’s community centers, there’s social housing, we have health health centers like the safe injection site. And, um, but there hasn’t been a place for those, those smaller social enterprises, community building organizations to have, um, affordable real estate affordable spaces and to be able to network and build together. Cause when you’re, when you’re a small group and you’re working, um, offensive, very challenging issues, you’re just, you’re at max capacity and it makes it very difficult to scale your impact.
Um, cause you’re just, you’re just constantly burning the candle at both ends, you know, so to speak, I can use a whole bunch of other metaphors, but, um, so that, that’s where that vision came from. And from there, uh, the city council at the time, vision Vancouver, um, and with the van city credit union, uh, bought into that vision and saw that, that opportunity and that impact in the city of Vancouver then worked with, uh, the events city art event, city credit union, and then Ben city community foundation to, to manifest that and implement that vision. And, um, you know, I even in between there, there was even a talk at one point about turning this into a tech hub before that vision fully came on as well. And the community rightly responded, like that’s not what we need. I mean, this isn’t the place for that.
Even as I can understand how that can be an economic driver for the city, but this is, this is not what the community needs, and it’s not asking for this. And in fact could be a detriment if it brings you more gentrification. So, you know, I’ve sent us a few times, but it’s, it’s a complicated project because of the history of this building because of the gentrification in the neighborhood because of the ongoing needs and the crisis that still exists in this neighborhood. So there’s a lot of things to consider and trying to balance those all together is definitely a challenge, but it’s, it’s necessary, you know, and it’s it’s, this is where we’ve come in the community foundation. And we’re trying to work with the broader community here too, is to find those balances and make this work because when it does come together, when it does work and groups are able to have secure space and work with other organizations that are creating change in their community or find new networks that they necessarily wouldn’t have necessarily thought they could build upon that strengthen their capacity, then we can see, um, a stronger community.
Isabelle/
So what has led you personally to this role in this moment, in your career?
Sean/
In some ways I feel like this has been just like a really natural progression for me. So my background, again, as I said, was, was working in this community for a long time, developing a, an organization and a social enterprise. And then for about two and a half years, um, I worked as the social enterprise development advisor, um, with events in the community foundation. So that was working to support a number of the groups that are actually in this building are my then, uh, and just broader trying to effect, um, I think change in, in our cities about the potential for how we use capital and, uh, where that money flows and, um, how do we create sustainable change, uh, for our communities? And I think social enterprise is one, one tool that can do that, um, and can do that in a really powerful way.
Isabelle/
Um, so what in your view is, is the way in which social enterprise approaches this problem in a, in a way that’s different than we’ve seen from two, maybe two more traditional vendors as an example.
Sean/
Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s for me, what I really, um, what draws me to social enterprise is the empowering aspect, um, where, um, when you’re able to find that cyst a sustainable model that you’re able to, um, compete in the marketplace and, and generate your own revenue and not rely on, um, on donations and grants as much. I’m not saying you still can’t, uh, I don’t need to in some degree, but, um, we’ve seen so many organizations that, that, that can just become so vulnerable to those, those large funding sources. Um, and when a government changes or money dries out suddenly they’re, they’re stuck. And that really challenges, um, the very important programming that they’re doing.
And I, and I, and not to say that that, that still is a model that doesn’t, shouldn’t still exist, but, um, I think that for me. What I really do appreciate about the social enterprise model is that, that, uh, self-sustaining, uh, aspect of that, because now you can, uh, have better certainty, about your own organization’s future. But I also think that the model, which, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of different social enterprise models, but one I worked a lot with was around supportive employment for folks with barriers, homelessness, addiction, poverty, mental health has. And what we’ve seen is when we were able to work to create jobs and give folks that sense of purpose. It is really powerful and really transformative for those individuals because I think poverty is obviously very difficult on a day to day, and that’s an understatement, but it’s really socially isolating and the depression that can just take hold of folks when they don’t have a sense of value of themselves.
And what we’ve seen is when we were able to work to create jobs and give folks that sense of purpose. It is really powerful and really transformative for those individuals because I think poverty is obviously very difficult on a day to day, and that’s an understatement, but it’s really socially isolating and the depression that can just take hold of folks when they don’t have a sense of value of themselves.
Um, so one, one of the social enterprises that are in is in three 12 hives for humanity. They, um, they run a series of community apiary throughout the city, uh, and they teach folks of all backgrounds and stripes about, uh, beekeeping and, and the importance of bees in our, in our urban environment as well. And they employ folks from the downtown East side to be some of the beekeepers or, or help make, uh, the candles that, you know, are the package of the honey. And you can see the pride that those individuals have, and that they’re developed. They have the skills, they just never had the opportunity. And so they show up to work everyday and they come into this building, just, just beaming. And, um, you know, in, in my own time to at megaphone, we saw that with the connections that vendors made with their customers and, uh, this just absolutely powerful to feel that sense of value to feel those, those connections with people.
And that was what really was lacking. The money is, is, is this really a conduit to those connections that has a huge implications to our societies and our communities when people should, everyone should feel, feel valued, you know, and everyone should have a role in the field. Like they have a place. And I feel like social enterprises do that so effectively for people, and they can integrate themselves into the rest of our [inaudible]. They can integrate into, uh, into our economy. Um, they allow for people to, um, build relationships with them as consumers, you know, whether you’re buying an individual product or as an institution, perhaps you’re contracting with that, um, with that social enterprise. But instead of it feeling like it’s an other piece, or like a program that I’ve just, you know, feels quite distant. I think it’s also really important for general society to, to find ways to connect to these issues in ways that are accessible as well. And I think social enterprises does. That’s why I also think they really help inform people about these very challenging social issues, environmental issues in ways that, um, necessarily other programs or advocacy organizations. Can’t not that they don’t play a powerful role too. I think it’s just a, it’s just a piece of a puzzle here. Yeah.
Isabelle/
Part of the mission of this space is to focus on issues of reconciliation in facilitating some of those conversations. What, what are mechanisms, what are concrete things that you’ve observed, observed that you have found the most successful in you, you did mention getting out of the way. But in the, in the instance of reconciliation, if we’re trying to address it from a place of dialogue, how, what have you seen that has moved us forward even in a small way,
Sean/
And just at 312Main here. Yeah. Sometimes, like I said, you know, giving space and allowing people to claim space in those indigenous communities to claim that space, I think is important, but understanding how you show up as an ally and how, how do you build this with, with folks, um, as a partner and the role not. And I think, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s a big and important issue that I, uh, I think we’re still learning. And I think, um, we have to have to be okay with, I have to know that, or we know that we don’t fully know all the answers, but how do we begin to understand those answers? How do we ask those questions? Um, and that just takes time and trust with working with those communities and listening to when they say we need this space for a healing ceremony and how do we help, how do we help facilitate that?
Um, I think this space, you know, when, when it first opened under phase one, uh, brought in an indigenous elder Shane Pointe, who did a smudging ceremony to try to, to heal this, this building. And, um, um, through that, he came back and said, you know, this, this space has a spirit of a grandmother, and this can be a really caring, um, place that, that opens itself up and welcomes and cares for the community. And, uh, I think we’ve everyone here in this building has really taken that to heart to understand what does that mean and how do we show up in that, in that way, and how do we build on that? But at the same time, I know there are still jail sales in this building that haven’t been removed. Um, and there there’s a few of them left in there. They’re stark and under their frankly, they’re haunting.
Um, and we’ve had folks who’ve come into this building and, and can’t, or can’t come into this building, um, because of those traumatic, um, that traumatic history. And as we go forward and it, and we, we do bring in more, you know, the community does come in here more. We have to understand what, what does that mean? How do we continue to participate in this Hill healing? What are the, what are the conversations that we have? What are the ceremonies that we need to have? Um, what is the, what is the legacy of what this building was, um, and the impact that, that had on this community and how do, how do we heal those, those wounds? And I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know that answer to be Frank and I, but I, but I know we’ll keep asking and we’ll keep working on it.
And how do we, um, make sure the indigenous indigenous communities do feel that sense of place here as well, and that this is a positive place, uh, for those communities. Cause, um, they’ve been, they’ve been so deeply impacted. Uh, uh, so, you know, I it’s, it’s, it’s early, I’d say still for us, but I think, you know, you know, even having the union BC Indian chiefs in here as has been, um, has been really important in continuing to talk to them and we need to continue to talk to the, uh, the communities around us and really continue to just be very intentional about like learning and working on these issues. So five minutes in, what does success look like to you personally a year from now? So, um, you know, we’re, we’re in a phase development in terms of, uh, filling out the space and, uh, we have, so, uh, you know, a first kind of cohort of organizations and groups that, that, um, where we’re say we’re about, you know, 50 to 60% full, we’re looking for impact for organizations to come into this space.
We want this to be, again, a place where those groups can work out of, or can have events, um, and, and feel that they can create, you know, the, the change and do the work that they need to out of this space. So if they’re interested in moving into the space to reach out to us through the, uh, you can do that through our website three 12 main.ca, um, and, uh, we have a, just a process in place and how you can apply. But I think that’s, that’s also the place, you know, where this could be the space for you. We really do want to have progressive social change, environmental indigenous organizations out of this space. And I think that that will really strengthen and build this space and help it reach his potential. So, um, absolutely we’d love to give, uh, groups interested in working on the space tours and see if this would be a fit for them.
Sean Condon is managing director at 312Main. A project of the Vancity community foundation, 312Main is a center for social and economic innovation located in the downtown East side in the former Vancouver police department headquarters. Sean previously served as social enterprise development advisor for van city community foundation and founded his own social enterprise megaphone, which is a monthly magazine sold on the streets of Vancouver in Victoria by homeless and low income vendors.
